Monday, July 14, 2014

Coming Soon to a Teatro Near You

obama, obama jokes, political, cartoon, humor, stilton jarlsberg, hope n' change, hope and change, planet of the apes, illegal, immigration, aliens, border

We're letting the cartoon carry the commentary today. Sometimes, gnashing your teeth like Charlton Heston and pounding your fists in the sand is the only appropriate response...


REM1875 said...

Thank heavens Mr Heston is not alive to see the real 'planet of the apes' we now exist in.

Ron Russell said...

You really out did yourself with this one. Just put it up at Stop Obama's Agenda. I often post your stuff there.

TrickyRicky said...

We are so screwed. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Geoff King said...

As if we did not have enough to worry about concerning Der Führer, now it appears that he may be literally going insane:
As the cheese slips slowly off his cracker, what wonderous things might he cook up? Will he reach the level of daffiness that Emperor Caligula reportedly achieved when he married his own horse? Øbama does seem to be quite attached to his dog Bo. Of course, his current marriage already borders on being a cross-species relationship. It can only get weirder from here on folks.

Judi King said...

Not only is it appropriate, it's probably our only recourse. Although WE should be telling the progressives to "pound sand", that doesn't seem to be happening. Geoff, glad to see you're reading Roman history but, I agree, it's (the dic') marriage is some kind of cross-something. The "spouse" definitely could be an inhabitant of the ape planet.

Grumpy Curmudgeon said...

@Geoff King: D*** that's scary stuff, but it fits with other psych profiles done years ago, fits too well in fact.

Bruce Bleu said...

Geoff, you'd better signify that the "cheese is falling off his cracker-half", or you'll SURELY be accused of being a RACIST!
And, a Wookiee and oreo... it may be "cross-genus" or possibly "cross-classless".
I'm PRETTY sure I'd feel better to pound my fists into a fac... well, let's just say something OTHER than sand.

CenTexTim said...

In the same vein as Frankie's URL:

U.S.-Mexico border is about 2000 miles long.

obama wants $3.7B for this crisis.

$3.7B/2000 miles = $1.85M per mile.

We could build one helluva fence for a little under $2 million per mile.

Of course, that'll never happen, but a guy can dream.

I guess that makes me a Dreamer...

Jim Hlavac said...

Now that is just too funny! But I didn't know they made iguana and guacamole ice cream .. blech.

Anyway, in shameless plug -- I have a book out out on Amazon/Kindle -- "Stalin Giggled" -- about how the slow increase in laws over 40 years allows a crazed power mad president to really do a number on the country. It starts out in the Bush term, goes through Obama like ice cream through an intestinely challenged illegal -- and on into our progressive future with a Hilary-like nut and then a theocrat gets a hold of the "we have to pass it to know what's in it" nonsense. Oh, it's a big book. Like a 1000 blog posts. All set in the near future.

Well, if the country is going to go to hell, I may as well try to make money from it!

Ah, don't worry - people like us eventually save the place -- one need a happy ending!

Have a wonderful week watching the morass of our times!

Stilton Jarlsberg said...

@REM1875- Indeed, Heston would not be happy with the current state of affairs.

@Ron Russell- Hey, thanks for the share! (And go check out the site, folks!)

@Frankie- Good link about the $68k Barry wants for every illegal. And there was another story I read recently which is a PERFECT example of government inefficiency, waste, and stupidity (or am I being redundant?). It seems that the government is paying up to $1000 for each actual bed (presumably a glorified cot) for the illegals. When asked about this outrageous spending, the agency replied that it was the fault of not having a larger budget - because with more money, they could do a better job of gathering bids for spending. D'oh!!

@TrickyRicky- Those are the directions for sham poo. We are in real poo.

@Geoff King- I think Barry has always been more than a little nuts, and it's now getting worse because nothing reinforces megalomania quite like being surrounded by sycophants.

@Judi King- The liberals refuse to pound sand because it might cause environmental damage.

@Grumpy Curmudgeon- In complete sincerity, I think Obama was irreparably scarred (mentally and emotionally) by his childhood. He is an angry, intelligent outsider who wants revenge on a world that he feels mistreated him.

@Bruce Bleu- Actually, if Barry is just half a cracker it helps explain why his cheese is slipping!

@CenTexTim- Thanks for doing the math; I'd wondered about that. Bonus: we only need to build the fence once versus paying immigrant benefits for a lifetime (and longer if they procreate).

@Anonymouseseses- Yes, the original "Planet of the Apes" was campy but definitely entertaining. And Nova was a pretty good special effect without any help from CGI.

Back to politics, while there are certainly parallels to "Planet of the Apes" in our current situation, my main point in the cartoon is that in some not-distant dystopian future we'll be able to look back like Chuck Heston and see that the power brokers just threw away our greatness out of their own stupidity and ambition.

@Jim Hlavac- Congratulations on the book! I just hope it doesn't turn out to be prophecy...

Colby Muenster said...

And the taxpayers said to O'liar... "Take your stinking paws off me, you damn dirty ape!"

@Frankie and CenTexTim,
What trips my trigger on the fence thing is the fact that a law was passed to build it, and it was funded, but the ball got immediately dropped, forgotten, and buried in red tape. Shame on "W" for the first fumble, then O'Liar for completely burying the ball.

Along these lines, I have a question that I honestly don't know the answer to. Do state Governor's NOT have the authority to call out the National Guard in emergencies? What is to stop the border state Govs from doing exactly that? I would laugh my ass off if Rick Perry or Jan Brewer called out a few thousand Guardsmen to patrol the border and stop the influx. And O'Liar couldn't do a damn thing about it. But... maybe I'm wrong about Governors having that authority. Can somebody shed light on this?

Grumpy Curmudgeon said...

@Colby: I think it has something to do with the fact that they 'Nationalized' the Guard units because of duty in Iraq and Afghanistan - so the Gov's may have to get O's Mea Culpa before calling them out (though, just calling up specific units - say the MP's may not have to be authorized through the Pentagon - don't know). I believe Fallon called in the Guard in the OK tornadoes but I don't know if that was before or after declaring a state of emergency - hey! There's an idea - just declares the situation a state of emergency!

Anonymous said...

People who aren't white living in America - the exact same as a nuclear holocaust.

Nope, nothing deplorably racist here.

David in SoCal said...

Colby: Point well made about the abrupt stop of the Border Fence back in '09(?). I'll never forget Janet Androgynous Napolitano halting construction, and then declaring the fence completed.....Completed up to the point it was stopped, that is. Why it was stopped is no mystery, considering the Ineptocracy running the country. What I would like to know is: WHAT THE F&*K HAPPENED TO ALL THAT TAX PAYER MONEY allocated to finishing the fence? Even the new fence they built is now so dilapidated and penetrable, why even have one.
Grumpy C: The way I understand it is if Teyhas or Mexifornia send National Guard to the border to do what the Oinviter Administration is bound by Law to do; it's at their expense. We should declare '50 States of Emergency' in order to git-r-done now.
Stilty: Great toons as of late, the BV must have finally taken effect. I am also very honoreded to have been the spark for a few of your toon bar-b-q's. Wish I could do the photo-shop thing, but alas; it's difficult to navigate the keyboard with a handle of Fireball in one hand, and the other hand twitching like Police Chief Charles Dreyfus, as I get increasingly exasperated and insane, as a result of Inspector Clouseaubama. Still waiting for my gratuity checks, delivered by Ed McMahon!....Hi-Oooooh!
AND: Governor Perry was right in yer toon: 'Asshole' is contagious; it has infected every gubment/msm employee that supports Onarcissistic.
@All: Dontchya feel better that Barry Hussein sez "The borders are secure", and "The World is a safer place"?....Hydraulic Sammiches for dinner again.

JustaJeepGuy said...

Oh tell us, "Anonymous", why the concept of ILLEGAL immigration doesn't register with the "progressives" infecting America? What part of ILLEGAL don't you weasels understand?

American Cowboy said...

Is my "new math" off?
I think $3,700,000.00 divided by 2,000.00 is $1,850.00 per mile?
Perhaps my jim-dandy PC calculator is off?
In any case even if it were a paltry $1,850.00 per mile is still quite a bit. IMHO.

Anonymous said...

@Jeep: The part where you're saying that people who have to flee their homes from deplorable violence to try and have a better life in a new land - a land that has a statute saying, and I quote "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore." - and they're expected to go BACK to the land where they could be killed and wait the 20 years for the immigration process to work.

Or really, I could ask why exactly it was LEGAL immigration when white people stole land from the Native Americans, but its ILLEGAL immigration when refugees want a better life.

Glory be to Ba'al said...

True, we should be concentrating on giving ice cream (and food, clothing, and education) to the underprivileged children in America.

(And to the immigrants too because really, should one have to suffer just because of their place of birth? That's just not what Jesus would want)

Geoff King said...

@Anonymous: First, the passage you quoted is no STATUTE. It is a poem on a STATUE made in France. Second, there is now proof that ancient Europeans settled North America long before Native American ancestors crossed over from Asia, so the tired old "whites stole the land" may be exactly the opposite of the truth. Regardless of that point, every nation on the planet has rules and regulations governing immigration. No country has borders that anyone can legally just ignore. Without those rules and borders, nations would cease to be autonomous and would eventually fall into anarchy from the criminal element that would move in. Do you leave the front door of your house open for all to enter? If not, you are being a hypocrite when it comes to all those poor homeless huddled masses.

Geoff King said...

Side point: As the vast majority of Native Americans had no concept of land ownership and believed it was given to all people by the Great Spirit, how could White man have stolen what they did not posess?

Stilton Jarlsberg said...

@Colby- I'm not sure about the authority of Governors and the National Guard in this case; let's remember that Barry and Eric filed a lawsuit against Arizona for attempting to enforce federal immigration laws. I'm sure you'd see the same thing with ANY attempt to slow down the influx of illegals.

@Grumpy Curmudgeon- It sure looks like a state of emergency...

@Anonymous- The problem isn't people who are non-white. The problem is people who are here illegally. And yes, I think our society can be brought to ruin by overwhelming the system (Cloward-Piven style) as readily as if nukes were involved. The process is simply slower.

@David in SoCal- I was reviewing some older cartoons today and saw that in the runup to the last elections, Janet Napolitano was arguing that illegal aliens were a huge national security threat. Funny that her replacement doesn't think so. Then again, she probably just hates nonwhite people...

@JustaJeepGuy- To a progressive, nothing is illegal - ergo all opposition to lawbreaking must be race-based.

@American Cowboy- You made a tiny error of the sort that happens in Washington all the time. You entered $3.7 million, not $3.7 billion. So yeah, something close to $1.8 million per mile of fence.

@Anonymous- If there had been more room on the Statue of Liberty, the full text would have said we'll take "the wretched refuse of your teeming shores...BUT NOT ALL AT ONCE."

As far as your extremely timely and inciteful observation that the United States is comprised of land stolen from Washington's football team, I'll suggest a compromise: the wretched refuse can get the same deal that American settlers got: a patch of undeveloped land that they can live, die, or prosper on with no financial support from the government.

If we could get that arrangement codified into law and enforced, then I think those immigrants wanting to build a better life should be free to try.

Unless they're land-stealing white bastards, of course.

@Glory be to Ba'al- You make a good point; why should people have to drag their keesters all the way to our shores to share the wealth? Nancy Pelosi already declared that we're "all Americans" in this hemisphere.

And seriously, redistributing America's "sinfully acquired" wealth throughout the world is very much at the top of Barry's agenda.

@Geoff King- Great points.

Anonymous said...

@Stilton: And since thats not completely full of shit, that would mean there are a large amount the comics you've done about people illegally immigrating from Canada, who should logically be just as bad since they're breaking the same laws.

So, lets see all of those comics you've done about Canadian Immigration.

Ooh, thats a whole lotta nothing. So I guess its just a specific kind of people who its bad when they illegally immigrate.

Anonymous said...

@Goeff: So the difference is that Native Americans were kind and compassionate to people who needed help, and you're a selfish racist scumbag. I've never seen anyone try the "I am a terrible human being in every way, so its alright" defense.

Geoff King said...

Wow. You really bought into the sugar-coated history of Native Americans. Kind and compassionate? Truth is most tribes were in a constant state of war with each other. They killed, pillaged, raped, and tortured almost any other tribe they came across. Besides that, it is estimated that plague killed off almost 90% of them, not White man. Also, most tribes were nomadic because they would totally destroy whatever environment they camped in by cutting all the trees, killing all the game, and polluting all the water. Then they moved on to a new area, warring with any other tribe they happened upon. Try reading some history past the Kindergarten level.

Grumpy Curmudgeon said...

@Geoff King: And don't forget the Karankawa who would be more than happy to have you over for dinner (ala Dr. Lecther).

@All: Arguing with a troll is a lose-win situation, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Judi King said...

Obviously legitimate history is no longer being taught in schools, hence we get people like our pet troll. It IS pointless to argue with stupidity, the brainwashed can learn nothing.

Geoff King said...

BTW. I feel very honored that you should resort to the last defense of all ignorant Liberals by calling me names. Being part Native American myself, your racist slur is quite amusing.

Geoff King said...

Quite true on both counts. I forgot to mention the "kind and compassionate" cannibalistic Native American tribes. Also, while arguing with ill-informed Libtards is pointless, it still gives some personal gratification.

Anonymous said...

So, you're attempting to claim that Native Americans engaging in small tribal skirmishes invalidates their claim to the land, whereas white peoples direct funding of rape and genocide campaigns in the lands that these people have to flee, doesn't mean white people have to show any compassion at all.

Also, I fail to see what native tribes did to each other has to do at all with how they are the only reason that white people ever learned to feed themselves and survive the winter in America.

Grumpy Curmudgeon said...

@Judi King: Check with your local school board - many have eliminated US history before the Reconstruction Period as being irrelevant.

I have long proposed that it should be a requirement to: 1) Obtain a High School Diploma, and 2) Register to Vote - to pass the standard citizenship test required of our LEGAL immigrants (that should set el Trollo off!). Starting Countdown 3..2..1..Holder files a lawsuit!

And Anonymous: "Your such the silly A**, hasn't anyone told you?" - Noel Coward

Stilton Jarlsberg said...

@Anonymous- Actually, Hope n' Change has done a number of cartoons aboot Canadians and their terrorist potential (feel free to look it up, since you didn't bother to before shooting your mouth off).

And if Canucks are here illegally, I say we round up the syrup-swilling, French-speaking, hockey-playing albino bastards and ship them back to their ice-covered hellish homeland. I don't care if they're fleeing the nightmare of socialized medicine - if they want to come to the United States they should do so legally rather than ice skating across the great lakes.

@Geoff King- Nice attempt to educate Analonymous, but it's a losing effort. To progressives, "history" only goes back as far as their most recently read tweet.

@Grumpy Curmudgeon- I won't usually debate a troll, but when he accused me of being a stinking Canadian lover I lost control (grin).

@Judi King- Right you are.

@Geoff King- Yes, but the part of you that is Native American was no doubt stolen.

@Anonymous- If I understand your argument, you're saying that Native Americans were wiped out culturally because they made the mistake of giving food and shelter to invading immigrants?

Because that's the same argument I made in today's cartoon, numbnuts.

@Grumpy Curmudgeon- You shouldn't say Noel Coward to a progressive, because "Noel" is an offensively Christian reference, and "Coward" is a pejorative based on an aggressively militaristic mindset.

On an unrelated note, Noel Coward would have owned the Twitterverse.

Geoff King said...

K. I will bite one more time, as futile as it may be. Most of the larger Indian nations you are familiar with today - Sioux, Commanche, Apache, to name a few - got there by waging genocide on all smaller tribes they encountered. They killed all the men and stole all the women, horses, and goods. I would not call it "small tribal skirmishes" when dozens of tribes had been completely wiped out by other tribes long before Columbus was born. After Whites settled in North America, many Indians attempted friendship with them - not out of compassion, but out of a desire for their superior weaponry to aid them in the further slaughter of other enemy tribes. I in no way condone or justify the treatment dealt them by some of the Whites, but do not paint them as totally innocent victims. Your statement that the only reason white people survived the winter was because natives taught them how to feed themselves is also in error. Those pilgrims were more than capable of sustaining themselves. Their foolish mistake was in migrating to North America too late in the year to get crops harvested before winter. Yes, the natives did share with the pilgrims, and quite probably were the main reason they survived that very first winter. After that, no further help was needed or asked for. The majority of the Indian Wars involving soldiers such as Custer, were not with these more peaceful Eastern tribes that established trade relations with White man, but with the extremely viscious western and plains tribes that had always been "on the warpath" with anyone - Native American or European - that came in their vicinity. The extremely few tribes in the West that were more or less peaceful agrarian societies, such as the Navajo, were forced to live in the most remote areas they could find - not from fear of White man, but of their own Indian "brothers".

Stilton Jarlsberg said...

@Geoff King- Really nice history lesson there. And I must confess that I chuckled at the idea that without the help of Native Americans, evil white people were totally incapable of surviving a phenomenon called "Winter" which had (at least in the mind of Anonymous) never been experienced in Europe.

@Anonymouseseses- Nicely expressed, both in the factual content and the insulting ripostes. Which, come to think of it, are also factual.

Progressives Are Effing Idiots said...

BTW toadstool anonymous, do you know what La Raza means in English?

It means "The Race". Now if white people used that term about themselves - well, we all know what your kind would say.

But "The Race" is actively involved in supporting this "invasion". Seems "racist" to me. De facto.

What say you? Or are you one of those who think only straight white males are evil. Everyone gets a 'bye' and associated "-ism"?

F off.

Progressives Are Effing Idiots said...

Hey, ya suppose it is Elizabeth Warren writing that garbage? She lied about her Indian heritage - she lies about everything, just like ALL so-called "progressives".

I say the idiot writing those anonymous posts is Elizabeth Warren practicing her run for the Prez.

You to be good a lying to run as Democrat. Better than RINOs.

Progressives Are Effing Idiots said...

"You have to be good a lying to run as Democrat. Better than RINOs."

To quick with the 'return' key ...

Elizabeth Warren is a douche bag said...

Geoff King -

Just got to your words.

You are correct as far as you go. The notion of the 'noble savage' is a historical lie. The nomadic ones, as you say, were vicious - killing man, woman and child of other tribes to get resources, land, and food. And for dominion. Most every tribal people around the world (and modern ones for that matter - people are like this) refer to themselves as "the people", meaning everyone else are barbarians and can be slaughtered with impunity (cf. The Holocaust).

Even the peaceful agrarian tribes, those who were settled before the Europeans arrived and used agriculture to survive, not nomadic hunting and killing, referred to themselves that way. In the Tucson area, there is a tribe who call themselves the Tohono O'odham. That translates into English as 'the people of the desert'. Humans who are not in one's tribe are not 'people' - they are animals like everything else.

And WRT the early European colonists from England - they almost wiped themselves out because the King made them set up a socialist society of sorts, where no one owned the land (except the King) that they, as a community, farmed. It was only when property rights were assumed that people worked the land hard enough to survive.

There was no notion of a 'nation' to the indians. They had their lands as do all tribal people everywhere - lands that were consumed by other tribes as you pointed out. I am not at all sure of the veracity of the story of the natives helping the early Europeans but I am sure that it is true to some extent. Just as it is true to some extent that there were evil Europeans and evil Indians. No one has a monopoly on "good".

But the 'progressives' are working hard on a monopoly on Evil, that is for sure.

And as the move illustrates, we are never far from The Planet Of The Apes - look at the medieval ages. That anonymous idiot, like all 'progressives' want to put us back there. The 'apes' were a 'progressive' society.

Judi King said...

@ Grumpy: You're right! A knowledge of all history should be a requirement and especially of our constitution but, I'm afraid, most of the teachers are just as clueless because they haven't had to learn anything historical either.

Pete (Detroit) said...

Hey, Stilt, as a descendant of Canadians who walked in....

You a funny guy! Just sayin'...

Canuck - duck! said...

You just alway gotta watch your back for those Canadians walking over the border, eh? We got nuttin' in common with those guys, no sir! Don't even speak the same language. I mean, what the heck is Pete still doin' in Detroit. NO ONE lives there.

OK, maybe Canadians who just walked in. 'Splains a lot about Detroit.

OK, OK! Just kidding. Want that anonymous moron to call me a name or something. Canadianist, I think.

And now, a moment with Ben - Now he should be president.

Allah of Dystopia said...

Something for the moron to chew on - he can read can't he?

I mean really ... what the hell has Obama done here? 100's of thousands of kids crossing the border? Is that surreal? An invasion by any other name ...

And moron commentator, your Obama, your Democrats, your kind has brought this growing humanitarian crisis about.

Yes, we should be humane to them - but there is something seriously wrong about using them either way in this debate. Their homelands are treating them like dirt and we are aiding and abetting their homelands by not securing the border and letting out false hopes. This is becoming the Planet of the Apes.

BTW moron commentator, do you know how Mexico deals with illegal border crossers? Or Guatemala for that matter? It's not pretty.

Sure, the Dems want more voters, which is what these people will become. But how is this at all humane?

Does that moron commentator have any answers other than his usual childish lo-fo rants?

Stilton Jarlsberg said...

@Progressives Are Effing Idiots- I'm still amazed on a daily basis how Elizabeth Warren is such a rising star for the Democrats, despite her lying her cheekbones off to steal an affirmative action job from an actual minority.

@Elizabeth Warren is a douche bag- Very nice post and very good points!

@Judi King- Besides, how can progressives allow the teaching of history before they're done rewriting it?

@Pete(Detroit)- Just between you and me (don't tell Assnonymous!) I actually like Canadians just fine. Though they shouldn't just walk in and go dropping their anchor babies all over the place. Then again, Canuck-Americans will do the jobs that regular Americans won't do - like shovel snow off the sidewalks.

@Canuck-duck!- Your reference to the relationship between the U.S. and Canada reminded me of this old HnC cartoon about Obama saying that the relationship between Israel and the Palestinians is basically the same as the relationship between Americans and Canadians. You can't make this stuff up.

@Allah of Dystopia- Good points. No one with a heart wants to see these kids treated badly (well, actually Barry wants to see them treated badly if he can pin the blame on the Right) but we simply can't absorb and support every human being who is currently in unhappy circumstances.

And as you point out, it's this administration's lack of border control and widely-acknowledged "we won't send you back" policies that are drawing these young immigrants by design.

It's an incredibly cruel way to use children. Although I'm sure our anonymous friend approves of sacrificing a few for the good of the many.

Allah of Dystopia said...

Stilt said: "... but we simply can't absorb and support every human being who is currently in unhappy circumstances."

I most certainly agree with that, which is why I was calling it an 'invasion' ("A rose by any other name ...").

And Obama simply coasts along, chugging beer, playing pool... I am waiting for Harry Reid to blame the Koch Brothers for this.

Hey, Tom Steyer, spend your billions on these kids, you hypocrite. Your gang brought them here. Buffet? Gates? Soros? Anyone?

Crickets from the left ...

Anonymous said...



Karnak said...

That was a mighty racist statement there sparky.

Your kind shouldn't be coming here. Go to Harry Reid's home page.

Maybe you are Hispanic, hence the name Jesús? You should show more tolerance for others, Jesús. Maybe you are in La Raza? The Race? Very racist name, La Raza but that would explain your comment.

You racists, like your 'progressive' brethren, say despicable things when you aren't wanking in your parents' basement.

American Cowboy said...

I stand corrected, something NO ONE in Washington will ever do.

Grumpy Curmudgeon said...

Jesus? Jesus does my lawn man.

Karnak said...

Ha! Grumpy - you're great.

Wasn't that a perfectly awful comment that idiot made just above my comment? There are some real jerks out there that twist the references into racist crap. You have to be a racist to come up with that sort of garbage.

BTW, does your Jesus have a contact #?

Judi King said...

Is the troll on drugs or what?

Karnak said...

Judi King - you are giving the troll too much credit. Drugs would surely explain the troll completely but I am quite convinced that 'progressives' in general confuse their bowel movements for deep thoughts. And this constitutes the 'wisdom' that they share with us.

Drugs would make more sense and could be forgiven.

Not being able to tell the difference between shit-and-shinola cannot.

Stilton Jarlsberg said...

@Readers- Uh-oh! Not only is Anonymous making spit-flecked accusations of racism, but he/she/it has also exercised the Nuclear Option and gone to ALL CAPS.

What a sad, angry, race-obsessed, dismally informed person.

Grumpy Curmudgeon said...

@Judi King: What sad is I had 5 grade-2 clerks (and one girl friend - not in that count) that had education degrees and teaching certificates. All quit because in the school systems it wasn't about educating the children, but passing the 'test'. That, the senseless unending paperwork, and seeing the dregs of the education system still employed and ruining children. My wife to this day has a horror of math because of a 4th grade teacher.

Judi King said...

That is very sad but self evident. The kids today are clueless for the most part.