Democrats on the Senate intelligence committee put America's citizens, interests, and allies at risk yesterday with their release of a report about CIA interrogation techniques used post-9/11. Techniques which B. Hussein Obama (who enthusiastically endorsed the release of the report, whatever the negative consequences) gleefully calls torture.
Hope n' Change admits that the treatment a number of prisoners got was horrible. Which isn't quite the same as saying that they didn't have it coming, or that things went unconscionably over the line. War is unavoidably messy and violent, including the war on terror - at least, if you intend to win it.
And just maybe a few potential terrorists might be less likely to try to kill Americans if they realize that they could be in for a long period of sensory deprivation, threats, rectal feedings, and waterboarding before they eventually get their eternal prom night with 72 virgins.
Was it appropriate for the Senate to investigate and make sure that any unauthorized actions or abuses be discovered and addressed? Of course. But the Dems could have kept the specific results classified and issued a general statement that, in their opinion, we did wrong. Instead, they chose to reveal the specifics of everything that happened and the names of every ally who helped us "off the books" under the belief that our promises of confidentiality actually meant something.
As a result of this report, CIA operatives will be afraid to act in the future, our allies will lose trust in our word, and our enemies will be enraged and emboldened.
Still, the president believes that all of the damage - and the direct risk to American lives and interests - is worth it in the name of "transparency." A transparency which, oddly enough, he only exercises when broadcasting our nation's perceived shortcomings.
FROM THE HnC VAULT: 4/20/09
29 comments:
Hello,
One of the "tortures" described was being kept awake for five days.
However, while in the US Army, I was kept awake for eight days as part of a training program. After about four days, the body starts to balk at being vertical. The facial skin starts to sag. The stomach starts to protrude. Digestion becomes a problem.
But, the resolve to fight back becomes more intense. On the fifth and sixth days, they forced me to run with others who had been sleeping normally. I was "lapping" the other runners, and coming up behind them and mocking them by running very close behind them to the amusement of the observers. Lack of sleep did not make me weaker, it made me more crazy and mean and I had more strength.
On the eighth day, the program was brought to a close. I believe that the people around me were getting worried that they might get into trouble for doing this to me.
Just My Thoughts,
Bill Moore
We complained mightily against the Chinese/North Korean "sensory deprivation", back in the 1950s. As a high school junior in Manila, 1949/1950, I met people who had quite a bit to say about the Kempeitai's brutality.
Nope, torture is a Bad Thing. Those who would be that evil are no better than the Kempeitai or the SS.
Desertrat
Just can't make out what the benefit of all this might be. No profit can result from yet another tired attack on the evil Bush/Cheney regime.
No laws were broken and care was taken to acquire Congressional oversight cum approval of the various methods of data mining used by interrogators.
So someone pushed the limits a little bit. BFD. Looks like nothing but spite to me, sour grapes which will poison our intel vines to the point of atrophy.
Unless . . . UNLESS . . . it's a thinly disguised reverse psych ploy to counter the savagery of the Islamic beheaders by demonstrating just how savage WE can be when crossed or miffed.
Hard to see which is worse: politics as usual or political correctness run amok.
Diane Finestein just bumped Jane Fonda to second place as "Enemy of the State" in my opinion. She released information about not only our country, but our allies, as well. By this action, Finestein has condemned Americans around the world.
This report was released not as "transparency in government" but as a purely partisan action; Finestein wanted to get one last slap against President Bush and Republicans.
There is a special place in hell for Diane Finestein.
As much as I respect John McCain's service to his country and what he (and others) went through as guests of the Hanoi Hilton, he is completely off base on his remarks concerning this report. The VC/NVA, like the Japanese before them did not have 'enhanced interrogation', the just beat the h*** out of them until they 'confessed'.
The releasing of this report is for a few reasons - 1) The Democrats have taken the most complete shellacking at the polls in recent times and have completely lost the moderate Democrat voter, for in truth, they have become the Progressive Left Party and are trying to regain relevance with the progressive left by pursuing these ridiculous claims; 2) It's "Look - A Squirrel' time to try and deflect attention to Gruber testimony in front of the Committee; 3) Obama trying desperately to regain his 'legacy' by making the United States the target of ridicule and being portrayed as the criminal by the use of these interrogation methods; and 4) Bringing back the Bush/Cheny are war criminals meme that the progressive left has been pursuing for years.
I for one favor listing the Democratic Party (as it is now) as a terrorist organization intent on the destruction of the United States. Sounds harsh? Really?
Personally, I don't care what is done to prisoners of WAR. In my opinion they should have been shot but apparently our "intelligence" community needed any information they could gather from these prisoners. Why is this disclosure being done 12 years later? Seems a little strange, so I'll assume it's part the regime's agenda.
I think everyone knew that torture has been a CIA tool since the organization was founded. That said, the release of specific details serves no purpose except to stir more distrust of our country, more justification of our enemies motives, and more blame being given to the Bush Administration. All good reasons for Øbunghole to approve the report. Why John McCain also approved it's release is beyond me, unless he wishes to further justify his own breaking under torture in Vietnam.
As torture is against the Geneva Convention, not to mention US laws, the international and domestic ramifications of this report are far from over. Our enemies will be emboldened, our allies will lose even more trust in us, and our military's safety and morale will fall to historic low levels. I am sure our dictator in chief is laughing his head off over all of the harm that will now befall us.
My head about exploded when I heard one of O'Liar's responses, when he said (paraphrasing here), "When WE make mistakes, WE should admit them." WHAT!!!??? I think he meant to say, "When George Bush makes mistakes, we should make sure armed terrorists know it wasn't me."
Of course, we all know how quickly President Chickenshit always rushes to admit his mistakes, right?
Truth be known, there probably isn't much in these reports that Joe Blow Terrorist has not already guessed, but Feinstein and her turd friends have gifted the bad guys with a wonderful excuse to go chop off some innocent people's heads.
Am I the only one who sees the irony in this information being released only two days after the anniversary of the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor?
Yes, the treatment of terrorists was not pleasant. Agreed that their interrogations involved some harsh methods.
I do not believe that any of their treatment would rise to the same level of viciousness and cruelty shown by America's enemies in wars past, or in the present war on terror.
Perhaps it is time to "fight fire with fire" and begin employing some of the same tactics on any US held POW which were used in the past by the Japanese, the Germans, and now radical Islamists?
Some enforced hard slave labor with only very minimal food and inadequate clothing until they starve or freeze to death would provide cheap labor for those "shovel ready jobs." A few random executions of prisoners would thin the ranks.
Just a couple random thoughts.
@Bill- Wow, great story. And maybe it suggests that we should let terrorists get more shuteye rather than less.
@Desertrat- Torture is a bad thing, and if the report is accurate there were occasions in which our people went too far.
As I said in the commentary, it's actually a good thing that we investigate these practices to make sure we remain on the side of the angels. My problem is broadcasting the specifics of that investigation as yet another example of America's shortcomings.
@bocopro- Exactly. "What is the benefit" of making this report public? And while I like your counter-psych idea, I doubt that the bad guys are going to be terribly intimidated now that they know the limits of what their captors can do.
@Bobo the Hobo- Agreed. This is not about "transparency," this is about blaming America yet again. And it should be noted that Feinstein's committee didn't actually question the actual CIA interrogators, so its accuracy and conclusions are legitimately suspect.
@Grumpy Curmudgeon- Good summary. I agree that this is all part of a large, ongoing effort by the Obama administration to show America as a morally failed experiment.
@Judi King- Actually, King Barry does prefer to blow enemy "belligerents" to pieces with drones rather than bring them in for questioning.
But once they're in our custody, we do have a responsibility for civil (not necessarily pleasant) treatment except in genuine ticking time bomb scenarios. Then it's time to use the Jack Bauer playbook.
@Geoff King- Well said. It is important that we police ourselves, but not a good idea to use the world stage as our confessional. Damaging our nation's image isn't an "unintended consequence" of this report's release - it's the sole purpose.
@Colby Muenster- Barry further proved "I'm not the bad guy" by releasing six prisoners from Gitmo a few days ago, and shipping them off to Uruguay. Granted, Uruguay may not be able to keep a close eye on them and they could return to the battlefield - but still, Saint Barry did the "right" thing letting them go. And if more American blood is spilled, "what does it matter?"
Part and parcel of the fundamental transformation of the nation. Surely this does not surprise anyone who is a regular reader of this blog.
Too bad the movie Unbroken did not come out just before this report was made public. Everyone seems to think it's only Uncle Sammy who is the bad guy.
And I'd love to see some satire of a look-alike report substituting a Daniel Pearl beheading for Ahkmed the Donkey-lover's little sleep deprivation.
If hooking up a Sears Diehard 770 cold-cranking amps battery to Ahkmed means saving just one American life, I only have two things to say:
Red is for positive and black is for negative.
------------------------------------------------
Derka derka derka.
What people need to know is, (as I understand "Geneva"), the issue of torture is NOT method, but INTENT! If someone is "wadder-borded", but the INTENT is to elicit information, it is FINE... if the same scenario is repeated, but the INTENT is to cause the subject to FEEL they are being tortured, THEN it's torture.
Case in point, I am TORTURED by the fact that lamont is the STUPIDEST person to ever occupy MY White House, (now AKA barackingham Palace), and he does the most MORONIC things for "national interest" I have ever observed. Even though I AM tortured by his actions, if his INTENT is just to destroy the nation, I have no recourse to impetrate that Geneva is being violated, because THAT was not his objective. If, however, his intent WAS to destroy America AND cause me torture, THEN he would be guilty!
I had a dream last night that every democrap was abducted by mooselims, and they threatened to release one every hour unless we agreed to their demands of "a camel in every tent" and a free subscription to "Vicdromedaries Secret Lingerie Catalog". I was asked by HS if we could increase their Hydrogen content by one molecule per 314.1593 square miles and THAT'S when I was conflicted.
Japheaux,
THAT is the FUNNIEST "South Park" EVER!
The same people whose underwear is in a wad over the Snowden leaks now are rejoicing the release of this report. The same objective is reached: America is a bad bad country. I think Ms. Feinstein is genuinely upset her reign of power is over in the new Congress and is retaliating. She will no longer be able to funnel money to her husband's business.
Well, it whatever its ultimate cost, the release did get the Gruber hearings off the front page, so at least for the Democrats, it was worth it. Gruber was grilled for his remarkably transparent comments about how Progressives need to make Progressive policy as non-transparent as possible to dupe us stoopid voters. However, in fact ObamaCare never duped the voters, who were overwhelmingly against it from the very beginning, and still are; it's complexity and lack of transparency was designed to dupe Democrat congresspeople into voting for it, which they did hook, line and sinker!)
So it's more hypocritical than ironic that yesterday, the Democrats took to the meme of "transparency" to justify the release of the "torture" report to wipe Gruber off the front page.
I was amused yesterday by the comments of Dianne Feinstein, prattling on about America being a land where we respect "rule of law" and what-not. Certainly not the tune we've heard Democrats singing much of as of late. Guess "rule of law" only applies when we're talking about non-Democrat policy.
Saw what you will about the whole torture debate, but I do appreciate the unintended consequences of what the Democrats have forced here; that in the future, our armed forces and intelligence people will no longer go to the trouble of capturing these people alive, since doing so now is simply too troublesome; will result in minimal useful intelligence (so they say), will become political liabilities, and ultimately they'll have to be released back into the wild where they can simply resume their jihadist activities. From now on, they will simply kill them on sight, which is probably for the best.
@ Grumpy,
Absolutely this is the latest squirrel tactic. Which makes me ask myself yet again, what kind of evil SOB would willingly... no, eagerly endanger American lives for political gain? And, as Mr. Econ has pointed out above, those "leaders" spouting that "we are a nation of laws" apparently are exempt. It's the pot calling the kettle black thing... oh crap! I'm a RACIST!
@Japheaux,
A couldn't agree more, but would like clarification on a technical matter. Do you attach the positive to their scrotum and the negative to their nipples, or the other way 'round?
@John the Econ,
You are probably right. There will be a lot more wet work over at the CIA now. I know if I was a spook, I'd be a lot more inclined now to shoot first and ask questions later because that is surely what the other side will be doing now.
A commenter posted this pic in a story over on Breitbart. I figured most of you here could appreciate it.
So, the Republicans have voted for a budget which continues to fund Øbamacare with no stipulations. Once they control the Senate in January, one might think they would immediately press for impeachment of a totally out of control, illegal, and unConstitutional administration - thereby restoring Constitutional Law, but if one thinks that...one is delusional. As Dubya made it painfully obvious when he called Bill (the sexual predator) Clinton his "brother from a different mother"; and Hillary (I pretend to be a commoner to get your vote) Clinton his "sister in law", there is no longer any difference whatsoever between the two parties. You either vote for a " Republicrat" or you vote for a third party candidate that could actually make a difference.
Thank God I am a Libertarian.
@txGreg: With the new posting rules here on HnC, it has become difficult to continue a thread. I posted a similar comment to your picture link before I could see your entry. As yours has already been published, I can only hope that mine is taken with the degree of originality I intended. Otherwise, I agree wholeheartedly with your contribution.
@Geoff King, the Bush clan has never been "conservative" in the Ronald Reagan sense; they've always been closely aligned with the big government Rockefeller wing of the GOP. Beyond holding the line on tax increases, Dubya did very little for the cause of limited Constitutional government.
My uncle was a WWII POW in Japan. He spent the entire war as a slave coal miner. We would have thanked God on our knees if his captors had "tortured" him as gently as the CIA treated their captives.
Those who are having a hissyfit over the torture of trerrorists have no idea what "real" torture is. Its waking up every morning, and remembering that your husband, wife, father, mother, son, daughter, sister, brother, or dear friend died on September 11, 2001.
Here's an article from two years ago dealing with this very same torture subject.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/31/obama-justice-department-immunity-bush-cia-torturer
I find it quite revealing that Øbama and Holder granted immunity to the Bush regime for obvious crimes committed. Please inform me how the Republicans and Democrats are any different from each other, because it sure seems that they are one and the same to me.
John the Econ's Random Thoughts for the Day:
Do you get a discount on your feminist dues if you claim to have been raped? Is the discount bigger if you were raped by a white male, football player (but not soccer) or a Republican?
A prime example of Eco-leftism at work - Greenpeace activists trample ancient Nazca Lines in Peru.
Brainless eco-leftist activists cause actual environmental damage in the name of imaginary environmental damage. That's the brainlessness of eco-leftism in a nutshell.
@Readers- The more we learn about this report, the more it appears to be "full of crap" (in Dick Cheney's words). Entirely one-sided by the Dems, and based on not a scintilla of testimony from the people who were actually involved.
It would seem that there is virtually no purpose for this report being issued other than to degrade our nation's image in the world.
@Geoff King- I genuinely regret that the "moderated posts" policy makes it hard to keep threads going. Hopefully, for most people the inconvenience is worth it.
No @Stilton, there was one good reason. It got Gruber, who was being grilled in committee, off the front page. The focus on the CIA report just proves that Gruber was right.
BTW, I think the Republicans blew it with Gruber. Instead of pointlessly grilling him, they should have been commending him for his candor on the fraud that is ObamaCare. We only wish he had been so honest with us all 4 years ago.
The Administration's position on this subject seems to be "Death Before Discomfort". Drone strikes on suspected terrorists(and their families as collateral damage)are OK , but subjecting terror suspects to some harsh treatment to possibly gain some useful information a about their plans and and personnel is not OK. In short, WTF!
As I understand it, all but one(?) of these people we "tortured" are still suckin' air and many have been returned to the bosom of their (more or less) intact families. Some have also returned to the battlefield as well. So, I for one, am not losin' any sleep over their treatment. Treatment, that other than the length of time involved, was not that much different than what I experienced during Escape and Evasion training in the Army back in the sixties.
Kind Host, Everyone...Merry Christmas! I am happy to have a moment to join the conversation.
IMO, we did what we did for the purposes of intelligence gatehering, not torture so that takes care of intent, as Bruce Bleu above eloquently noted.
That we debate the practice of "enhanced interogation" makes us different than the savages we fight in the War on Terrorists Who Mainly Practice Islam.
That we have the debate over the post release trauma inflicted by the release of this one sided, purely partisan, showing America's ass for a nickel's worth of validation for the Democratic Party 'report' PROVES we are not like the enemies we fight.
That we are engaged in it when ISIS is demanding $1 million dollars for James Foley's body is an indictment of the Left that SHOULD condemn them to electoral peril for generations.
That it won't is America's shame.
WE are Good/
THEY are Evil.
NOTHING is relative.
And now to stave off a return to the botle that I swore not to anymore, I say again....Merry Christmas!!
@Bruce Bleu The Geneva Conventions Article 4 define who is covered by the GC protections. Al-Queda, ISIS, etc... members do not fit and of the definitions in Article 4.
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